Joan had some interesting thoughts up on MLK Day. Unfortuanetly, the comments rapidly devolved. For example, when some folks essentially said, "The KKK was evil; law enforcement was in cahoots with them; some black people chose armed self defense" she read that as somehow racist and supportive of the Klan. Huh?
She also accuses us of trying to rewrite history. This is my reply, which I fear may be headed for the RD trashpile:
I am just amazed that you guys are trying to rewrite commonly held American views on what happened during the awful period with the KKK and civil rights.
We celebrate MLK in part because he was a martyr. He recognized that there was a threat to his personal safety, decided that non-violent resistance was the best course of action for his cause, and eschewed tools of self-defense. He could have had bodyguards or hid behind a bulletproof glass "popemobile" screen or not made public appearances. That's heroic by anyone's measure; it is the very definition of a martyr in the example of Jesus or the saints to suffer persecution and death for a righteous cause.
However, I don't think that most religious or secular leaders would be disturbed at the idea of self-defense -- including armed, lethal self-defense -- especially in a case where the death of the innocent is irrelevant to the cause. For example, if a white policeman's attack dog tears out the throat of a protestor on national TV, then that is martyrdom. If that same policeman puts on a white robe and pays a housecall with his buddies at night when there's nobody watching and lynches the victim, then what has that accomplished for the cause? God has given us bodies and minds and intends for us to use them and take care of them (1 Cor 3:16-17). There was debate and discussion within the civil rights movement about this, and I think it would also be worth differentiating the aggressive generally indiscriminate violence advocated by some groups such as the Black Panthers and the more measured self-defense advocated by other groups (Deacons for Defense).
Some people -- likely a minority -- who were in the civil rights movement or who lived under Jim Crow persecution clearly chose armed self defense, despite the laws that prevented them from lawfully acquiring and carrying weapons. Anecdotally, there are many stories that describe lives saved. The number of armed blacks in the movement was less than 100% but greater than 0%. Given that even under laws like those in Alaska only around 65% of people own firearms and only 2-5% actually carry arms on a regular basis, a "WAG" (wild arse guesstimate) of 2-10% of African-Americans regularly carrying in the 1960s is probably in the ballpark (could be on the low-end due to highly restrictive laws that suppressed gun ownership and carry, or on the high end due to the breakdown of the justice system and extraordinary threats faced by African Americans).
This isn't just right-wing gun nuttery, either; "Remember the Titans," a major film (and a great movie about an inspiring story) depicts the black football coach as swiftly responding to an attack on his house with a shotgun. Note that in real life, Coach Boone didn't own a shotgun (although his house was attacked), however, the point is that a mainstream major film from our time chose to include an incident of armed self-defense; I just skimmed his bio and filmography but the director, Boaz Yakin, doesn't seem like an extremist right winger out to rewrite history to me. Daily Kos, a left wing progressive blog that normally strongly supports gun control, even points out many of these things. Is Daily Kos now out to rewrite history?
MLK was a martyr for his cause, but not everyone is called to be a martyr. There was a role for non-violent resistance, and a role for armed self-defense. The efforts of each group probably aided the overall cause in a synergistic manner. Most insurgencies -- and that is what the Civil Rights movement often was, an insurgency against corrupt and discriminatory state governments -- fail. One study found that nonviolent campaigns succeed around half of the time and violent struggles succeed only a quarter of the time (1900-2006). However, the study makes no effort to classify the effectiveness of campaigns which include both; renouncing the strong-arm aggressive tactics of, say, the Black Panthers but including a component of armed self defense. Anecdotally, at least, it is an effective strategy; self-defense doesn't undermine the legitimacy, broad participation, and pressure brought to bear by the non-violent agitators like aggression does.
wtt 9mm brass
2 hours ago

I've been watching this one. It's my post for tomorrow morning. It sounds to me like Joan cannot differentiate between violent and predatory vs. violent and protective. That plus she believes that the blacks in the South were saved by the liberal northern whites instead of by themselves. Sure, whites voted to force law changes, but the fight was started, continued, and won by the southern blacks themselves.
ReplyDeleteSadly, you are both misreading and trying to rewrite history.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, trying to claim a minor diary entry on dKos implies support or agreement from dKos is pretty foolish. You could log into dKos and write a diary about how you think it should be madatory people change their undies three times a day and that folks should wear their skivvies on their head so the underwaer police can check. Doesn't mean dKos approves of it.
Try a thought experiment. Think of being black in, say, 1964. Let's say you and a bunch of like-minded individuals took up guns and started to ensure they got their civil rights. What do you think would happen?
The answer is there'd be some white people dead, a whole lot of black people dead and civil rights delayed for several generations.
You mention the Deacons for Defense. Do you know what became of them? Probably not, since you're just excited that some black people carried guns.
Let's do a different thought experiment. Who should we believe, you? Or Dr. Condoleeza Rice?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm going with Condi on this one.
Sean: You should believe me. After all, I never claimed there was no intelligence casting doubt on Saddam having WMD. Rice did, in testimony before Congress. I never suggested Saddam Hussein had or was very close to having a nuclear weapon--Condi did. I never claimed--again in Congressional testimony--that nobody had ever thought of using airliners as weapons as Condi did. On August 6, 2001, the President's Daily Brief was entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S." Asked about this later - apparently there was some sort of an event that happened the next month - Rice commented that "it was information based on old reporting"--not me.
ReplyDeleteIt's also weird that Condi Rice wrote that she became a GOPer "beacuse the Democrats wouldn't allow [her] father to vote." Of course, by the time she entered the political arena, those same Democrats had all joined the GOP.
So, yeah, you're free to believe anything and all Condi Rice says or said. But the fact is she has a bad habit of saying things that aren't true.
Jade,
ReplyDeleteSince you don't like Dr. Rice's story, how about Shirly Sherrod (remember her -- the USDA official who was unfairly pilloried by Andrew Breitbart)? After her father was murdered by a white man who never faced charges, the Klan burned a cross on her front yard while her mother and five small children (including an infant) were home. Her mom confronted the Klan with a firearm while a group of local blacks gathered (perhaps we could call them a militia, if that doesn't make your cranium spin too much), forcing the Klan to withdraw.
Also, I understand that DailyKos is a blog with loose editorial control. However, look at the comments to the post, from a crowd which is decidedly progressive. I only noticed one commenter who opposed the assertions made in the article. If the post were totally out of left field (pun intended), wouldn't you expect a vociferous reaction from the progressive audience? Instead, most agreed with the author!
Armed self defense clearly played some sort of role in the civil rights movement. Racism clearly played some role in gun control measures (some of which are still on the books). Where do you think the pistol permit law in Sean's home state of North Carolina comes from, for example?
As for your thought experiment -- I prefer real world experiences, if available (which they are). Clearly, armed self defense worked for some -- if not even many -- African Americans. The number is clearly greater than zero.
I've heard your position that armed self defense by minorities is ineffective expoused by Brady Campaign leaders before and frankly I find it kind of insulting; there are some things worth fighting and dying for. Martyrdom is not for everyone and it isn't always effective either. If we lived by your proposed values, then the Jews at Warsaw should have just peacefully resisted, Shirley Sherrod should have let her infant son be lynched by the Klan (and maybe offered herself up to be raped), and homosexuals who are beaten viciously by intolerant bigots should just accept that they risk death for choosing to live in the Bible Belt. I don't think that your side usually intentionally tries to oppress minority groups, but it is certainly an unintended consequence of the worldview and policies you support.
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The study about violent vs. non-violent insurgencies was really interesting to me. As a follow-up research question, I would be interested to break the data set into three categories: Violent insurgencies (indiscriminate civil-war style violence), non-violent civil resistance strategies, and mixed strategies that used both non-violent civil resistance combined with measured and limited armed self defense. I think that is an interesting research question.
Chris: Nobody claimed the number of instances of armed self-defense was zero; certainly, I didn't. What I do dispute is that armed self-defense produced any meaningful change in civil rights policy. And if we stipulate the number of armed self-defense instances is greater than zero, can we not also recognize there were cases where self-defense resulted in further oppression and bloodshed?
ReplyDeleteYou reference the Warsaw Ghetto but fail to understand it failed quite dramatically, even though it was a noble cause. It resulted in greater bloodshed and oppression.
What you fail to recognize is that the battle for civil rights was won by changing institutional policies not not by folks taking what they believed they were entitled to by force. This applies not just to racial equality, but issues such as gay rights or gender discrimination.
Additionally, you have to question why virtually every major black and Jewish organization supports gun control. In fact, most are listed as "enemies" by the NRA. What do these groups know that you don't?
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In War College, they teach about insurgencies. Basically, and I'm doing some major summarizing, an insurgency can be sustained (not necessarily) prevail if 20% of the population either actively or tacitly supports it. It's also apparent violent insurgencies almost never work because of factionalization. OTOH, nonviolent insurgencies have a better track record because they impact institutional structures which tends to bring about reconciliation much sooner.
JadeGold,
ReplyDeleteYou raise some interesting questions so I think I'm going to write an entire post. My response was getting lengthy for a comment.